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Meet Cameron 🇬🇧! Cameron is a full-stack software engineer, podcaster, and co-founder of The Coder Career. But before learning to code, he studied business... and worked as a tech recruiter! This episode is all about networking. How to do it? What to say? And... To whom? Do you have to be an extrovert to become good at it?
Cameron will teach you why networking is important and how to go about it. He will also give you scripts for different situations - from reaching out to a recruiter on LinkedIn to starting a conversation with somebody at a meetup. Alex and Cameron discuss how to stand out when applying for a job and how recruiters operate. There are more junior developers than junior positions, and we hope this episode will help you get your foot in the door! Or, at least, nurture your professional relationships - you never know when can they come in handy.
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You can also Tweet Alex from Scrimba at @bookercodes and tell them what lessons you learned from the episode so they can thank you personally for tuning in 🙏
Cameron Blackwood (00:00):
There's really not that much you can actually do in terms of what the recruiter's going to see in a list of emails. However, you find the recruiter on LinkedIn, you connect to him, you send a message and be like, "I just saw this job. Looks amazing. Here's why I like it, X, Y, Z. If there's anything you want to ask me, then please let me know." Because no one does that. And that's how you stand out.
Alex Booker (00:19):
Hello and welcome to the Scrimba Podcast. On this weekly show, I speak with successful devs about their advice on learning to code and getting your first junior dev job. I'm Alex, and today I'm joined by Cameron Blackwood, an experienced developer and host of The Coder Career podcast. Cameron wasn't always a developer. Like Most of us at 18, he wasn't sure what he wanted to do and decided to study business management. Along the way he got into recruiting before eventually becoming a developer. A lot of this transition happened while he was working at a tech company as a recruiter, but also hanging out with and learning from developers at the company on his lunch breaks.
We're a few years along now, and Cameron is super passionate, just like us, about helping new developers maximize your chance of getting hired at a company where you can learn and grow into a high paid developer. In this episode, you will learn how Cameron thinks there are more junior developers than there are junior developer job roles, but also crucially, what you can do to maximize your chance of success. Let's get into it.
Cameron Blackwood (01:32):
I'm a classic case of someone who decent shooting in school, got decent A levels, but had no real idea of what I wanted to do. I'd just turned 17 when I was applying for uni. Cycled through a ton of different stuff, very nearly did Russian. So who knows how that could have turned out? I mean, to be fair, there's a geopolitical market for job speaking Russian now, but let's not get into that. I eventually settled on business because I was like, a business is near enough the safest degree, it's quite vocational. I was sick of actually studying. I wasn't really the best student. I was always the dumbest kid in SAT 1. I don't know, I was like Norwich or Fulham. Every day was a relegation battle. So I was like, I get into a Russell group, I wasn't anything outstanding.
So I went to university of Birmingham and did business there. And that was actually where I got my first introduction to code. So obviously studying business, I was put into random halls, full of people doing other subjects. And I made friends who were all doing STEM subjects actually, funnily enough. Every other lad in my flat was doing a STEM subject. And one of them, Mark, was doing computer science and artificial intelligence. And we got on really well. And we lived together all the way through uni. And basically, Mark was down a player on the computer science football team. So they were really desperate and they drafted in me for the season.
So I got to know a lot of people in the computer science department. I thought this is a very interesting world. And if I'd discovered it earlier, perhaps I would've even sandwiched my degree and done a year in there. But it was what it was. And it was a little bit too late. But the idea was planted in my head, I think I'd be keen on getting in the tech industry. So I left university and I got into technical recruitment, basically under the assumption, this is going to make me a load of money. Spoiler alert, it didn't. I thought I was Jordan Belfort, but actually I was more Alan Partridge or David Brent sometimes.
Alex Booker (03:21):
Oh my goodness. You're mentioning so many things specific to the UK, I feel like, comparing The Wolf of Wall Street with more like the Michael Scott of the US Office, I guess. And it's funny, you mentioned being at the bottom of SAT 1 because in the UK, our score systems in high school, there's SAT 1 at the top, SAT 2 and SAT 3 where they kind of split the students into. I was a SAT 3 student, by the way. So I'm pretty proud of you, mate. That was good going being in SAT 1. But yeah, you were saying.
Cameron Blackwood (03:47):
Basically ended up doing technical recruitment. And I had kind of a rough experience with it and I felt this industry is so broken. So I joined a startup that was trying to, and it still is, trying to take down the traditional agency model. They're called Talent.io. So any experienced engineers want a job, definitely recommend checking them out, because they're basically a jobs platform. You sign up and they send jobs to you. While I was working there, I got really friendly with the engineers there. And they were one of those companies that really cared about your self development. That's what I really liked about them. And they gave me the freedom to learn to code. So I used to use my lunch hours, or even sometimes time there if it was quiet, to code. And I got a lot of support from them, which was really nice.
And I was incredibly privileged to have that network and that position because Talent.io helped me get my first proper foot in the door and proper experience. Because I left them to concentrate more on coding and started picking up contract recruitment jobs. And I was kind of spinning my tires a little bit. I was ready, but I wasn't ready. And Talent.io ended up getting me a really, really great job at MTO Media and that was my first foray into code. And I learned from some amazing people there, big shout out to Howard and Pete, if you're listening.
Alex Booker (04:56):
That's wicked, man. So they kind of invested in you and trained you up in a sense. Of course, you were still doing your day job, but they were creating those opportunities for you to grow, and they even supported you in transitioning roles, being an alternative to the talent agency model. That's amazing.
Cameron Blackwood (05:10):
Yeah. They're great people. And the vision they have is really impressive. And I definitely recommend people check them out if they're curious about getting a new job at some point.
Alex Booker (05:18):
It's quite interesting because, in most countries, at the age of 17, 18, we're kind of posed with this question, what do you want to do with the rest of your life? Very few of us get it right the first time. And in the UK in particular, where we have fairly high tuition fees and stuff, you're going down a pretty deep path actually from day one. But then you sort of stumble around, don't you? And you kind of figure out the ideas that keep coming back. Do you think there was an element of luck there? Or do you think there's more of an element of sort of your mindset and kind of creating those opportunities for yourself?
Cameron Blackwood (05:48):
It's definitely luck that I ended up getting on the path I was. A computer put me, Mark, John and Alex in the same flat. Another Alex, we didn't live together. And they were all STEM guys. So that was how I picked up the knowledge of the industry, basically from them. But then after that, I think the secret to what I've managed to do and the new career I've managed carve out for myself is, I have become very good at networking. And working in sales and recruitment, I would absolutely never claim to be an amazing salesman, but I do think I'm quite a good pitcher and networker. I'm quite good at, in basic terms, just remembering people and remembering what they do and trying to do people a favor before so that if you need their help for something, you can already help them out and they already think well of you.
So I always try and make sure I can help someone out because, it's the kind of, today you, tomorrow me philosophy. I'm quite keen on that. And I think that's a big lesson that I learned. And the more people I could help out somehow, the more it would come back to help me. And that has served me very well. Obviously, there's a huge degree of luck involved, of course. But that's what I've always done throughout my career. And I would always say to people, never be afraid to reach out to someone. The worst they can say is no. And if you think you can help someone, then always do it, because you never know how that person could help you in the future, and you should offer it if you can.
Alex Booker (07:02):
I think a lot of new developers, get in this mindset of, to have the most opportunities, they have to be the best coder. And then of course, we learn in school things like, to get jobs what you need to do is create a resume and then apply to a bunch of companies. But then this idea of networking is so powerful because you can essentially sidestep some of that. But equally, it's not a priority for a lot of new developers. And also, there's a lot of questions. It kind of conjures this image of people with business cards standing around a small table. How would you describe networking to a new developer?
Cameron Blackwood (07:31):
You know, I'm now picturing that business card scene in American Psycho where they're like, "Very nice, now let's see Paul Allen's card." No, yeah. As much as I wish it would be like that, because that would be very funny. I actually believe networking is 55% of getting your first job and technical skills are 45%. I actually believe it's a smidgen more important. Obviously, networking, it's important to consider that it can be a combination of online and offline. Having an online presence and a good portfolio is networking in of itself. And participating in trends like #100DaysOfCode is a great way to get yourself sort of noticed. You never know if a hiring manager might be on Twitter and they see that you're posting your progress or whether that's even potentially better than somewhere like LinkedIn. If you're posting your progress and approaching it with the humble, but hungry mentality is how I'd like to describe it.
Alex Booker (08:17):
What is the humble, but hungry mentality?
Cameron Blackwood (08:19):
I think it's always understanding that you can do better and you can improve on yourself, and don't have an ego the size of the planet. But also, as well, have that hunger and desire within you to do better and have the confidence to know you can continue to improve upon yourself. So it's a real balance to hit. And people can accidentally slip into believing their own hype a little bit, or they can struggle with imposter syndrome. And it's very difficult to hit that middle point, which I would call humble, but hungry. I don't mean just when you accidentally have a late lunch or anything like that.
Alex Booker (08:46):
Yeah. Do intermittent fasting while balancing your ambitions to be a developer, the ultimate strategy.
Cameron Blackwood (08:52):
Yeah. I think my intermittent fasting basically is, while I'm sleeping, I don't eat. But other than that.
Alex Booker (08:57):
When you describe networking, you're not talking about only outreach. I'm sure there's an element of that, but you're also talking about sort of setting up an online presence so that people can find you. And that almost greases the wheels and makes the conversations easier.
Cameron Blackwood (09:11):
Put yourself in the shoes of a hiring manager, right. There is only one position in the tech world where there's a greater supply of candidates than there is demand. And that's for junior/entry level positions. So what can you do to stand out? It's like, these people are going to be getting the same CVS. The hiring manager's going to be getting very similar CVS and profiles day after day. But if they find someone that's been documenting their progress online and has a solid portfolio, or even just pings them a message and says, "Look, I love this bit of content that your company put out." Because companies are always doing stuff like dev relations or building their marketing either through technical or non-technical content. I mean, this is content, right? So I'm not hiring developers. But if I was and someone messaged me and said, "Cam, I thought you were amazing on the podcast." Or, "I thought you raised some controversial points on the podcast or whatever." And then you start a conversation that way and then say, "By the way, I'm looking for work." Then that's a good way of doing it.
But never be afraid to reach out to people because really, what's the worst they're going to say? The worst they can say is they can't help. And I also think as well, the community is genuinely very helpful. And in fact, actually, I will not name names, but when I worked in recruitment, I had a bad experience at the start working for agencies. One manager turned to me. He explained what stack overflow was. And he said, "Yeah, it's quite weird because developers like to help each other." He said it without a smidgen of irony or anything, which was quite interesting.
Alex Booker (10:28):
Developers do like to help each other.
Cameron Blackwood (10:30):
Yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying. But he thought it was bizarre that humans would want to help each other. Some recruitment agencies like are like that. They just have the people in there with the mentality of, why would someone want to help each other?
Alex Booker (10:41):
That's a really good point. And I think actually, some forward thinking recruiters are kind of swaying their point of view a little bit. Even if a candidate isn't right for them today, or maybe they want to pass and share that candidate with another recruiter, it should come back in a good way. And I think that's a philosophy we can all apply to our lives and our job search.
Cameron Blackwood (10:58):
Yeah. And the thing is, with The Coder Career, the organization I run, we recognize that there are lots of great recruiters out there and we give those people as much air time/publicity. And we try and promote their great content as much as possible because the world needs good recruiters. And if you work with the recruiters that I know are good people, then you are going to have a great experience, whether they directly get you that job or not. Any of the recruiters that I've had in my podcast previously are exactly the kind of people that you would want to work with as a developer.
Alex Booker (11:26):
If you are enjoying this episode of the Scrimba Podcast, please do us as Scrimba a favor and share this episode with your friends on social media, like on Twitter or maybe in your community, like on Discord, for example. If you haven't already, it would be awesome if you logged into Spotify or Apple Podcasts and gave this podcast a five star review as well. Really, this kind of word of mouth is the best way to support your Scrimba Podcast and show us that you like what we're doing, and that we should do more. So a big thank you in advance. Back to the interview with Cameron.
I want to go back to something you said a minute or two ago. And tell me if I understood you right. But you said there are more junior developers than there are junior developer roles.
Cameron Blackwood (12:06):
Yeah. I mean, it's obviously unfortunate. A mid or senior engineer will make more of a commercial impact early on. So a company is more hesitant from an economic point of view to hire a junior because they're worried they'll leave after a year, as soon as they start commercially adding more value. So I think that's why it happens. And also, as well, particularly in an industry that is so high growth, generally speaking, companies tend to be very high growth. They're much more nervous about taking a gamble on juniors. So that's why the large companies tend to be the ones that give juniors opportunities in my experience. And actually, as a general tip, I would recommend juniors go towards larger companies.
I'm actually an exception to the rule. I joined quite a small company, but I had an amazing team to learn from. So that was kind of a different situation. But yeah, I think if you look at the stats, the supply and demand for senior developers, there's so much demand. Vacancies aren't being filled. I would argue that companies should give juniors more of a chance. And I absolutely would not discourage anyone from getting into tech based on the junior job market. It's possible. So many people get their first jobs all the time in tech. I just mean it's harder to get a job as a junior developer than it is as an experienced one. And you have that to look forward to. You hit an inflection point, 18 months into your career as a developer, suddenly, bam, your inbox is being hit 10 times a day by recruiters. And it's a very gratifying feeling.
Alex Booker (13:26):
I hear that a lot actually. But arguably, that first opportunity can be the hardest. If we take that statement about more juniors and jobs and say it another way, it could easily be said that from a recruiter's perspective, when they open their inbox, they have hundreds of applications for one role. What would your advice be to someone, in light of this news, as to how to stand out in that situation?
Cameron Blackwood (13:46):
Yeah. So make your portfolio unique is absolutely the headline I would have. So first off, a really nice personal website.
Alex Booker (13:53):
Just to pose that question even more specifically, when you're in a list of emails in an inbox, essentially, I might not even seen your portfolio at that point. To me as a new developer, that would freak me out, man. I'm kind of curious what you think.
Cameron Blackwood (14:05):
It's a good point. This is going to be a cop out answer. Oftentimes with an ATS, or an applicant tracking system, there's really not that much you can actually do in terms of what the recruiter's going to see in a list of emails because all it will say is, application for Cameron Blackwood for senior engineer. Or software engineer, sorry, I'm not a senior. That's what the recruiter will see. There's really not too much you can do there. However, this is my cop out answer. You find the recruiter on LinkedIn for the company. It's easy. You search up the company on LinkedIn, you click see all employees and then you search within that talent acquisition manager or recruiter or something. And then you find that person. You connect to them. Send a message. Be like, "I just saw this job. Looks amazing. Here's why I like it, X, Y, Z. If there's anything you want to ask me before, if we have some kind of screening call, then please let me know." Because no one does that. And that's how you stand out.
Alex Booker (14:54):
Why is that a cop out answer? That's a brilliant answer.
Cameron Blackwood (14:57):
Because it doesn't affect how it looks on the email chain, but the only thing you can do is, they'll recognize your application, because there's nothing you can do about an ATS, short of hacking into it. And don't hack into a company's ATS.
Alex Booker (15:09):
What a job application that would be. But no, I don't think it's a cop out at all. I think with developers, we look at problems and we solve them from different angles. And it ties in a bit to what you were saying earlier about networking, essentially. We kind of covered the inbound parts, like if you have a good portfolio, if you're active on social media. Remember, it's a social network. People are meant to be connected to each other. So if you're commenting on posts, liking other people's posts, all of this is a great way to help yourself be discovered. But maybe we can talk about the outbound approach a little bit more. You touched on a great strategy, I think, which is to find the recruiter and sort of write a message to them. How else can new developers utilize outbound messages on platforms like LinkedIn to increase their chance of success?
Cameron Blackwood (15:52):
Yeah. So talk about something that maybe a technical point you like about the company and a non-technical point you like about the company. So something important to remember about recruiters is, whilst they will have a background understanding of the technology and why it's a good selling point. They won't know the details, usually, under the hood about what's going on. And that's okay because it's not in their remit. So it's good to have a technical point that they can then show the hiring manager like, "Oh Alice liked this about the company. And Bob liked this about the company."
And then as well, for the recruiter themselves, you can talk about something in the company culture, which the recruiter's probably going to be more involved with because they probably do a fair bit of employer branding as part of their job, particularly in a smaller company. So you can say, "I absolutely love that you do 10% time, which by the way, if the company does 10% time, we talk red flags, green flags in The Coder Career quite a lot. And that is a humongous green flag if the company gives you 10% time, because that is exactly what you want. In my day job right now at Holland & Barrett I get 10% time. And it's a brilliant chance to build on my skills. And it's a real win-win because the company gets to almost upgrade me for free.
Alex Booker (16:56):
Every time a recruiter passes on a candidate to the hiring manager, they are kind of latching a bit of their reputation to that. It's not quite the same as a referral to a company. But in the case of a recruiter, they don't want the hiring manager to come back and say, oh, that was a waste of my time kind of thing. And so if there's any doubt in the recruiter's head about your technical ability, which could be because you're new or because you struggle to demonstrate your ability on a piece of paper, I genuinely feel adding that little bit of a personal element about why you're specifically interested in the role, showing you've done your research. If you're the kind of person who cares enough to demonstrate that, I think that's going to increase your chances, actually, a good few points to get through to the hiring manager and take it from there.
Cameron Blackwood (17:36):
It's one of those things where the more information you give the recruiter, the better position they're in. And you're right, you do stake your reputation online because, ultimately, hiring managers are super busy people. And the reason why you have recruiters is because it saves the hiring manager all the time, because recruitment absolutely is a full time job and then some. An internal recruiter will be staking their reputation, and an external because external, the client could drop you. So they really are staking their reputation. Internal, you can get sacked. I mean, I'd hope that an internal recruiter doesn't get sacked for recommending one bad candidate.
But it's about your internal branding, which I absolutely hate that phrase. Internal branding, it's how everyone else in the organization sees you, really. It's almost like your reputation. For example, one bad way I affected my internal branding early in my career, back in the days when we actually had an office, was me showing up at 08:59 for a 09:00 AM start, with toothpaste all over my face and a Greg's in my hand. Greg's is a bakery. I'm not talking about me dragging in some bloke, for our international listeners.
Alex Booker (18:38):
Cameron, would you describe yourself as more of an introvert or more of an extrovert? Do you feel like you have to be a certain level of outgoing to succeed in networking? I'm quite introverted, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't like to get to know people. And actually, one thing that pushed me out of my shell a lot in the beginning was just understanding how impactful this stuff is. I wouldn't let my career suffer because I was too shy to sort of go and fight for these opportunities. Obviously, I'm hosting a podcast now, I've made a lot of progress. But I'm just curious about your experience, and what advice you could share to people who are a bit apprehensive about this kind of stuff.
Cameron Blackwood (19:12):
I would say I'm an extrovert that's developed confidence issues as he's hit his mid twenties and has become less arrogant. Probably an extrovert at heart, but now I have a little bit more of a sensible bit of self restraint when blabbering on. And I think before I speak a bit more now, which is probably a good thing. I think it doesn't really matter whether you're an extrovert or introvert, this industry caters so well to people from neuro-diverse backgrounds.
Anyway, even then, beyond the extrovert, introvert split, it's a very understanding industry a lot of the time, I think. So I think it doesn't wholly matter. I know it's probably hard. I mean, I can't really put myself in an introvert's shoes, but I know it's probably very hard to do public speaking or something like that as an introvert. But you don't necessarily have to do that. You can just get yourself onto an event and have a slice of pizza and just listen to some events and get chatting with people. And again, obviously that's not easy for everyone, but people have name tags and you can say, "Oh, I see this company. It's cool." A previous guest I had in my podcast, she got her first job in tech because she happened to be sitting next to a director of engineering at a company. It could be as easy as that.
Alex Booker (20:11):
Can you teach us, say you're at a meetup or something, what's your approach to meeting strangers?
Cameron Blackwood (20:16):
I'm going to be real with you. It's usually bringing up the pizza or beer and saying, "Isn't this quality?" Being like, "Oh, I'm Cam." You know, something silly. Or being like, "Do you know any of the speakers?" Or, "Oh, do you work at this company that hosts it? Do you know much about this company that hosts this event?" And you get chatting because maybe they work at that company. Maybe they don't. And I think as well, people always appreciate other people that make the first move in a conversation in general in life. And sometimes it's important to remember that people will always talk to people they already know because it's the easy option. And everyone finds it hard to ice break.
I joined a new rugby team when I moved back up to Edinburgh, and at first it was hard because it's like, wow, everyone else knows each other and these lads have played together for years. And I found it really hard to go over and start chatting to people and just break the ice of a group of people that already know each other. And they also don't want to do the thing where they go out and chat to me first because I'm the new guy and they don't know me. Everyone finds it awkward to talk to someone else. And actually, the best thing to do is just, no one's going to be rude to you. We're not in school anymore. Who's going to rude if you go over and chat to them? It's weird. And in the context of a tech event, they'll kick them out if they're rude. So it's fine.
Alex Booker (21:21):
To summarize your advice. It's just to be curious and make them feel interesting.
Cameron Blackwood (21:25):
Yeah, absolutely. And people love talking about themselves, being asked about themselves. A lot of the time, particularly if you are chatting to somebody who's a bit more introverted, they'll be less keen to talk about themselves and they won't want to necessarily bring it up themselves. But they're happy to talk about it if you encourage people, and it brings other people into the conversation. And I think also, a lot of the time, it's a really good thing to do to, if someone's quiet in a group, just be that person to go over and include them in the conversation because they'll appreciate it so much more than whatever you're doing. Just always try and bring the quiet person into the conversation because they'll appreciate it, especially if they're new and they don't know anyone. Just say, "Hey, how's it going?" And introduce yourself. It's not that hard. We're all human.
Alex Booker (22:03):
Yeah. Because I feel like online nowadays, it's so possible to be successful. It's very easy to stay within your comfort zone actually. And you can find success this way, but if you're a new developer looking for a competitive role, especially, and you want to get there sooner than later, you really have to stand out some way. And although there are lots of individual tactics, what it comes down to more than anything is just latching more context to you as a person, whether that's personality or a story or even a photo, what your face looks like. I would say 90% of new developers don't do this. And so even if you're not very good at it, if you're part of that 10%, you have a much better chance of succeeding, I think. Same thing with portfolios and being active on social media and things, most developers aren't. So just by virtue of doing it, you have a really great chance of standing out.
Cameron Blackwood (22:46):
Absolutely. And just think outside the box as much as possible as well. I saw a post on Reddit about a bloke that was going to buffets in Silicon Valley because he just knew that chances are, there's going to be a load of senior engineers there. And he posted on Reddit that he got 70 business cards from people that were senior at some of the biggest tech companies in the valley. And I love that. That's genius. Because you get lunch as well. He said that it cost him $10 to get into the buffet. And he got a load of internship offers off the back of it.
Alex Booker (23:14):
There's a book, I'm looking it up, it's like Never Eat Alone or something. Maybe there's a link here. Just this idea of, if you're visiting a new city, always try and schedule lunch with somebody. And that's a great trick to network. It's not as sick as that, by the way. That's a great technique. I'd love to see someone try that. I really think this has been a great episode all about networking, because I also know that most developers don't do this. And I also recognize it can be a scary thing. I'm just wondering if you have any sort of closing advice for new developers or people breaking into tech as it relates to networking or just finding success in general.
Cameron Blackwood (23:47):
I would say, don't neglect stuff away from the screen. Your branding is so important. And you can be the best developer, I've seen some absolutely incredible developers take forever to get their first job because they just neglect that side of things. And it's just like, don't forget to do that. But then also as well, conversely, don't get us sucked into constantly networking and not actually working on your craft. Make sure you're putting in the hours, little and often. Some people advise, binge it a couple of times a week and do eight hours. Some people learn that way. That's fine. Personally, for me, I think it's better to learn for two hours a day consistently over the course of a few months. So that's the advice I would give people.
And just remember to keep that balance in your head. And obviously check out my careers network as well. Because we are aiming to basically be, there's so many amazing technical resources online, but there's not actually many non-technical for techie resources. And that's what I'm trying to do with The Coder Career. So do check out that as well. Sorry for the shameless self plugging.
Alex Booker (24:41):
Not at all, man. We're going to link it high and proud in the show notes. I was actually listening to your episode with Simon Barker on a walk last night.
Cameron Blackwood (24:48):
Alex Booker (24:49):
Absolutely loved it. Fantastic stuff. As I say, people can find that link in the show notes. Cameron Blackwood, thank you so much for joining me on the Scrimba Podcast.
Cameron Blackwood (24:57):
It's been an absolute pleasure, Alex. I've really enjoyed chatting. And yeah, absolutely love what Scrimba's doing as well. It's super cool and really interesting. And I'm excited to see where the journey goes.
Alex Booker (25:07):
That was Cameron, an experienced developer who, after grinding his way to become a junior developer, is now helping others. We love to see it. Thank you though for listening. If you've made it this far, you might want to subscribe to the Scrimba Podcast in your podcast app of choice for more helpful and uplifting episodes with recently hired juniors and industry experts like Cameron. You can also tweet me, your host, Alex Booker, and share what lessons you learned from the episode so I can thank you personally for tuning in. My Twitter handle is in the show notes. See you next week.